Vatican Scandals

To start off, what pronoun do you prefer to be referred to by?

We’re trying to merge into one person, so ‘them’ would work best.
Previously, I would go back and forth between ‘she’ (Mandy) and ‘he’
(Gerrit), but since we’ve started to be integrated, ‘they’ works best.


How much time would you typically have spent as Gerrit?

I met Gerrit back in 2014 when I was in school. Now, I have to have a job
to pay rent, so I can’t let him out that much, but we make art together.
These days it’s easier: I don’t need the beard to transition into Gerrit,
it’s more psychological. Before we were making different things, now we
are making more together.

What are the main personality differences between Mandy and Gerrit?

The main difference is that Gerrit doesn’t give a shit. He does what he
wants to do and he doesn’t think about others –he’s only been out for 3
weeks in total really, so he still needs to learn how to interact with
other people. Now we’re integrating so he’s learning from me – he can’t
say what he thinks all the time because that’s rude – and I can learn to
care less about what other people that?

So I’m guessing that the “Fuck This” image was Gerrit?

That was Gerrit!

Do you think the difference is partly a reflection of male privilege?

Yes. If you’re a man walking down the street, people move out of your way.
When you’re a woman, you’re expected to move. When I walked down the
street as Gerrit it was like the Red Sea, people would move out of the
way.  Afterwards, I walked as Mandy and suddenly bumped into people.

What are you and Gerrit currently working on?

I’m doing a piece now about Stonewall. Gerrit recently became a drag queen….
We made this film about the Stonewall Riots – the drag queens were forming
a picket line and doing the can can. We dance in front of a green screen
and there is also footage of the original Stonewall riots in the


Wow, how’s the drag queen thing working out?

It really confuses people when I’m a drag queen. My legs are very
feminine, but I’m 2 metres tall…..I’m a giant who walks around on heels –
I don’t know how to do this , Gerrit doesn’t either! We’re both struggling
with this new character. Gerrit is having problems with makeup, constantly
complaining that it’s too much and so on, but he just needs to shut up and
get on with it.

As soon as Gerrit became a drag queen, he became so much more masculine. I
want to play with that. Gerrit, the drag queen and I are all going to
Rome. I’m going to go with the weirdest luggage ever – if they search my
luggage at customs, they’ll be curious about why I’m bringing a fake penis
and a wig!

I don’t want to be nosy, but can I asked about the sexual
preferences of Gerrit and the drag queen?

Gerrit doesn’t like men – that’s for sure – because I went to a gay bar as
him, all these guys were into it and his thought was “Hell no!” As for the
drag queen, I don’t know yet – I just met her!

You mentioned Rome. I hear that your next project will be in the Vatican.
Tell me about that!

There was a gay sex scandal in the Vatican. They tried to cover it up but
they haven’t really succeeded because it came out in the media, people got
thrown out of the Vatican and so on.

There was one priest in the Vatican who was on an online gay chat room and
he invited a guy to the Vatican to meet him – the priest said ‘being gay
is OK, it’s not a sin and by the way you’re really hot’.

The whole thing was filmed and put on TV. The priest’s public response was
that I was a test as the devil tests people – so he said that it was all
down to the devil!

When I saw that, I thought “What the fuck?!”

I’m going to Italy for 3 months. I’m going to try to get into the Vatican
to see how it is there and do some research.

Is Gerrit fully into this Vatican project?

Absolutely – we wrote the proposal together. We’re pretty much totally
integrated – you’re currently talking to both of us. Gerrit and I will
respond to this issue together. We’ll be in Rome until the end of December
and in January there’ll be an exhibition of our work.

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